Halo / Flip-flop

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herb
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Halo / Flip-flop

Post by herb » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:08 pm

I thought I'd start a discussion on this, as it seems an issue people are divided on!

I don't get it at all, it wouldn't have saved Jules Bianchi or Fillipe Massa, it seems like a gimmick that they're selling as a safety device. I'm struggling to find an accident or serious injury that this would have prevented in the last 30 years! :X

I'm all for safety, but this isn't the way forwards.

As I've said before, the best way to avoid a repeat of Jules Bianchi's crash is to ensure that all recovery vehicles have guards round them so that if an F1 car should hit it, the F1 car will not go underneath it. To be honest I feel that the reason F1 ignore this is because if they admit that is the solution, they could be open to further action, as you could argue negligence letting a JCB with at least 2 foot ground clearance trackside with cars where the drives sit at a similar height.

herb
Posts: 21
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Location: South Manchester

Re: Halo / Flip-flop

Post by herb » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:25 pm

on a lighter note, I understand Lewis Hamilton has asked for the disc part of the halo (the horizontal c-shape) on his car to be "wrapped" to look like a large gold necklace :nod: :lol:

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StevieFerrari
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Re: Halo / Flip-flop

Post by StevieFerrari » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:10 pm

herb wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:08 pm
I thought I'd start a discussion on this, as it seems an issue people are divided on!

I don't get it at all, it wouldn't have saved Jules Bianchi or Fillipe Massa, it seems like a gimmick that they're selling as a safety device. I'm struggling to find an accident or serious injury that this would have prevented in the last 30 years! :X

I'm all for safety, but this isn't the way forwards.

As I've said before, the best way to avoid a repeat of Jules Bianchi's crash is to ensure that all recovery vehicles have guards round them so that if an F1 car should hit it, the F1 car will not go underneath it. To be honest I feel that the reason F1 ignore this is because if they admit that is the solution, they could be open to further action, as you could argue negligence letting a JCB with at least 2 foot ground clearance trackside with cars where the drives sit at a similar height.
Herb! Welcome back :thumbs:

What I'm struggling with is that it only seems to address one particular scenario i.e. a flying wheel or similar large one-piece debris. But I can also think of a few where it might actually make things worse - for e.g. creating a 'letterbox' for things to get jammed onto and directed at the driver's head instead of perhaps glancing off.

Imagine another car nose-in to that sloping sidepod on the Red Bull, the nosecone is maybe going to get forced through that gap rather than glance off the cowl and top of the helmet.

herb
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Location: South Manchester

Re: Halo / Flip-flop

Post by herb » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:17 pm

StevieFerrari wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:10 pm
Herb! Welcome back :thumbs:

What I'm struggling with is that it only seems to address one particular scenario i.e. a flying wheel or similar large one-piece debris. But I can also think of a few where it might actually make things worse - for e.g. creating a 'letterbox' for things to get jammed onto and directed at the driver's head instead of perhaps glancing off.

Imagine another car nose-in to that sloping sidepod on the Red Bull, the nosecone is maybe going to get forced through that gap rather than glance off the cowl and top of the helmet.
cheers mate! it's been a long time! :D

Good point, it could also trap something which could then snap and hit the drive if it happened at speed, say part of a wing or bargeboard. I think the little windscreen that RB did was a much better solution, but I really can't see the problem they're trying to fix by putting something on the car.

I still think that all vehicles that go on track while the cars are should have a maximum ground clearance limit for the whole vehicle, say 12", to ensure not only an F1 car but no race car can get underneath them.

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Snap Matt
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Re: Halo / Flip-flop

Post by Snap Matt » Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:32 am

I don't agree with the deflection comments. Overall, it increases protection against small objects. The objective is to protect the head; the hypothetical deflected object is likely to be a reduced energy impact so might end a career rather than a life. Henry Surtees' and Justin Wilson's accidents will both be replicated in F1 one day and the halo would save a life in both cases.

The testing of the halo was a lot more thorough than most of its criticism suggests. It isn't a guarantee or the final step in head protection but performs better than the alternatives so far. https://www.fia.com/news/f1-why-halo-best-solution

Herb's point about vehicles joining the track was addressed a couple of years ago with the VSC rules. One of the findings on Bianchi's accident was that he was one of several drivers still driving too quickly under double yellow flags. They won't send vehicles on track now while cars are still allowed to run at racing speeds.

herb
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Re: Halo / Flip-flop

Post by herb » Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:41 pm

Snap Matt wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:32 am
I don't agree with the deflection comments. Overall, it increases protection against small objects. The objective is to protect the head; the hypothetical deflected object is likely to be a reduced energy impact so might end a career rather than a life. Henry Surtees' and Justin Wilson's accidents will both be replicated in F1 one day and the halo would save a life in both cases.

The testing of the halo was a lot more thorough than most of its criticism suggests. It isn't a guarantee or the final step in head protection but performs better than the alternatives so far. https://www.fia.com/news/f1-why-halo-best-solution

Herb's point about vehicles joining the track was addressed a couple of years ago with the VSC rules. One of the findings on Bianchi's accident was that he was one of several drivers still driving too quickly under double yellow flags. They won't send vehicles on track now while cars are still allowed to run at racing speeds.
fair comment on the historic stuff! :thumbs:

with regard safety vehicles, I still think they should all have guards round them to stop anything going underneath for the following reasons:
1) it's not just F1 they serve, so do all formulas have to drop to a specific speed when the recovery vehicles are on track?
2) even at 50mph I wouldn't like to go under a JCB in an F1 car, my face would get obliterated. Whilst this may reduce the possibility of death, it doesn't reduce it anywhere near as much as fitting the recovery vehicles with skirts would. I'd rather see an F1 car hit a block of metal at 50 and watch the crumple zone do its job than watch another poor soul have a similar accident to Bianchi.

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